Socrates Well, I will tell you another image, which comes out of the same school:-Let me request you to consider how far you would accept this as an account of the two lives of the temperate and intemperate in a figure:-There are two men, both of whom have a number of casks; the one man has his casks sound and full, one of wine, another of honey, and a third of milk, besides others filled with other liquids, and the streams which fill them are few and scanty, and he can only obtain them with a great deal of toil and difficulty; but when his casks are once filled he has need to feed them anymore, and has no further trouble with them or care about them. The other, in like manner, can procure streams, though not without difficulty; but his vessels are leaky and unsound, and night and day he is compelled to be filling them, and if he pauses for a moment, 494he is in an agony of pain. Such are their respective lives:-And now would you say that the life of the intemperate is happier than that of the temperate? Do I not convince you that the opposite is the truth?
Callicles You do not convince me, Socrates, for the one who has filled himself has no longer any pleasure left; and this, as I was just now saying, is the life of a stone: he has neither joy nor sorrow after he is once filled; but the pleasure depends on the superabundance of the influx.
Socrates But the more you pour in, the greater the waste; and the holes must be large for the liquid to escape.
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates The life which you are now depicting is not that of a dead man, or of a stone, but of a cormorant; you mean that he is to be hungering and eating?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And he is to be thirsting and drinking?
Callicles Yes, that is what I mean; he is to have all his desires about him, and to be able to live happily in the gratification of them.
Socrates Capital, excellent; go on as you have begun, and have no shame; I, too, must disencumber myself of shame: and first, will you tell me whether you include itching and scratching, provided you have enough of them and pass your life in scratching, in your notion of happiness?
Callicles What a strange being you are, Socrates! a regular mob-orator.
Socrates That was the reason, Callicles, why I scared Polus and Gorgias, until they were too modest to say what they thought; but you will not be too modest and will not be scared, for you are a brave man. And now, answer my question.
Callicles I answer, that even the scratcher would live pleasantly.
Socrates And if pleasantly, then also happily?
Callicles To be sure.
Socrates But what if the itching is not confined to the head? Shall I pursue the question? And here, Callicles, I would have you consider how you would reply if consequences are pressed upon you, especially if in the last resort you are asked, whether the life of a catamite is not terrible, foul, miserable? Or would you venture to say, that they too are happy, if they only get enough of what they want?
Callicles Are you not ashamed, Socrates, of introducing such topics into the argument?
Socrates Well, my fine friend, but am I the introducer of these topics, or he who says without any qualification that all who feel pleasure in whatever manner are happy, 495and who admits of no distinction between good and bad pleasures? And I would still ask, whether you say that pleasure and good are the same, or whether there is some pleasure which is not a good?
Callicles Well, then, for the sake of consistency, I will say that they are the same.
Socrates You are breaking the original agreement, Callicles, and will no longer be a satisfactory companion in the search after truth, if you say what is contrary to your real opinion.
Callicles Why, that is what you are doing too, Socrates.
Socrates Then we are both doing wrong. Still, my dear friend, I would ask you to consider whether pleasure, from whatever source derived, is the good; for, if this be true, then the disagreeable consequences which have been darkly intimated must follow, and many others.
Callicles That, Socrates, is only your opinion.
Socrates And do you, Callicles, seriously maintain what you are saying?
Callicles Indeed I do.
Socrates Then, as you are in earnest, shall we proceed with the argument?
Callicles By all means.
Socrates Well, if you are willing to proceed, determine this question for me:-There is something, I presume, which you would call knowledge?
Callicles There is.
Socrates And were you not saying just now, that some courage implied knowledge?
Callicles I was.
Socrates And you were speaking of courage and knowledge as two things different from one another?
Callicles Certainly I was.
Socrates And would you say that pleasure and knowledge are the same, or not the same?
Callicles Not the same, O man of wisdom.
Socrates And would you say that courage differed from pleasure?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates Well, then, let us remember that Callicles, the Acharnian, says that pleasure and good are the same; but that knowledge and courage are not the same, either with one another, or with the good.
Callicles And what does our friend Socrates, of Foxton, say -does he assent to this, or not?
Socrates He does not assent; neither will Callicles, when he sees himself truly. You will admit, I suppose, that good and evil fortune are opposed to each other?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And if they are opposed to each other, then, like health and disease, they exclude one another; a man cannot have them both, or be without them both, at the same time?
Callicles What do you mean?
Socrates Take the case of any bodily affection:-a man may have the complaint in his eyes which is called ophthalmia?
496Callicles To be sure.
Socrates But he surely cannot have the same eyes well and sound at the same time?
Callicles Certainly not.
Socrates And when he has got rid of his ophthalmia, has he got rid of the health of his eyes too? Is the final result, that he gets rid of them both together?
Callicles Certainly not.
Socrates That would surely be marvellous and absurd?
Callicles Very.
Socrates I suppose that he is affected by them, and gets rid of them in turns?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And he may have strength and weakness in the same way, by fits?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates Or swiftness and slowness?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates And does he have and not have good and happiness, and their opposites, evil and misery, in a similar alternation?
Callicles Certainly he has.
Socrates If then there be anything which a man has and has not at the same time, clearly that cannot be good and evil-do we agree? Please not to answer without consideration.
Callicles I entirely agree.
Socrates Go back now to our former admissions.-Did you say that to hunger, I mean the mere state of hunger, was pleasant or painful?
Callicles I said painful, but that to eat when you are hungry is pleasant.
Socrates I know; but still the actual hunger is painful: am I not right?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And thirst, too, is painful?
Callicles Yes, very.
Socrates Need I adduce any more instances, or would you agree that all wants or desires are painful?
Callicles I agree, and therefore you need not adduce any more instances.
Socrates Very good. And you would admit that to drink, when you are thirsty, is pleasant?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And in the sentence which you have just uttered, the word "thirsty" implies pain?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And the word "drinking" is expressive of pleasure, and of the satisfaction of the want?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates There is pleasure in drinking?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates When you are thirsty?
Socrates And in pain?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates Do you see the inference:-that pleasure and pain are simultaneous, when you say that being thirsty, you drink? For are they not simultaneous, and do they not affect at the same time the same part, whether of the soul or the body?-which of them is affected cannot be supposed to be of any consequence: Is not this true?
Callicles It is.
Socrates You said also, that no man could have good and evil fortune at the same time?
Callicles Yes, I did.
497Socrates But, you admitted that when in pain a man might also have pleasure?
Callicles Clearly.
Socrates Then pleasure is not the same as good fortune, or pain the same as evil fortune, and therefore the good is not the same as the pleasant?
Callicles I wish I knew, Socrates, what your quibbling means.
Socrates You know, Callicles, but you affect not to know.
Callicles Well, get on, and don't keep fooling: then you will know what a wiseacre you are in your admonition of me.
Socrates Does not a man cease from his thirst and from his pleasure in drinking at the same time?
Callicles I do not understand what you are saying.
Gorgias Nay, Callicles, answer, if only for our sakes;-we should like to hear the argument out.
Callicles Yes, Gorgias, but I must complain of the habitual trifling of Socrates; he is always arguing about little and unworthy questions.
Gorgias What matter? Your reputation, Callicles, is not at stake. Let Socrates argue in his own fashion.
Callicles Well, then, Socrates, you shall ask these little peddling questions, since Gorgias wishes to have them.
Socrates I envy you, Callicles, for having been initiated into the great mysteries before you were initiated into the lesser. I thought that this was not allowable, But to return to our argument:-Does not a man cease from thirsting and from pleasure of drinking at the same moment?
Callicles True.
Socrates And if he is hungry, or has any other desire, does he not cease from the desire and the pleasure at the same moment?
Callicles Very true.
Socrates Then he ceases from pain and pleasure at the same moment?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates But he does not cease from good and evil at the same moment, as you have admitted: do you still adhere to what you said?
Callicles Yes, I do; but what is the inference?
Socrates Why, my friend, the inference is that the good is not the same as the pleasant, or the evil the same as the painful; there is a cessation of pleasure and pain at the same moment; but not of good and evil, for they are different. How then can pleasure be the same as good, or pain as evil? And I would have you look at the matter in another light, which could hardly, I think, have been considered by you identified them: Are not the good good because they have good present with them, as the beautiful are those who have beauty present with them?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And do you call the fools and cowards good men? For you were saying just now that the courageous and the wise are the good—would you not say so?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates And did you never see a foolish child rejoicing?
Callicles Yes, I have.
Socrates And a foolish man too?
Callicles Yes, certainly; but what is your drift?
498Socrates Nothing particular, if you will only answer.
Callicles Yes, I have.
Socrates And did you ever see a sensible man rejoicing or sorrowing?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates Which rejoice and sorrow most-the wise or the foolish?
Callicles They are much upon a par, I think, in that respect.
Socrates Enough: And did you ever see a coward in battle?
Callicles To be sure.
Socrates And which rejoiced most at the departure of the enemy, the coward or the brave?
Callicles I should say "most" of both; or at any rate, they rejoiced about equally.
Socrates No matter; then the cowards, and not only the brave, rejoice?
Callicles Greatly.
Socrates And the foolish; so it would seem?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And are only the cowards pained at the approach of their enemies, or are the brave also pained?
Callicles Both are pained.
Socrates And are they equally pained?
Callicles I should imagine that the cowards are more pained.
Socrates And are they better pleased at the enemy's departure?
Callicles I dare say.
Socrates Then are the foolish and the wise and the cowards and the brave all pleased and pained, as you were saying, in nearly equal degree; but are the cowards more pleased and pained than the brave?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates But surely the wise and brave are the good, and the foolish and the cowardly are the bad?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates Then the good and the bad are pleased and pained in a nearly equal degree?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates Then are the good and bad good and bad in a nearly equal degree, or have the bad the advantage both in good and evil? [i.e. in having more pleasure and more pain.]
Callicles I really do not know what you mean.
Socrates Why, do you not remember saying that the good were good because good was present with them, and the evil because evil; and that pleasures were goods and pains evils?
Callicles Yes, I remember.
Socrates And are not these pleasures or goods present to those who rejoice-if they do rejoice?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates Then those who rejoice are good when goods are present with them?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And those who are in pain have evil or sorrow present with them?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And would you still say that the evil are evil by reason of the presence of evil?
Callicles I should.
Socrates Then those who rejoice are good, and those who are in pain evil?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates The degrees of good and evil vary with the degrees of pleasure and of pain?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates Have the wise man and the fool, the brave and the coward, joy and pain in nearly equal degrees? or would you say that the coward has more?
Callicles I should say that he has.
Socrates Help me then to draw out the conclusion which follows from our admissions; 499for it is good to repeat and review what is good twice and thrice over, as they say. Both the wise man and the brave man we allow to be good?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And the foolish man and the coward to be evil?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates And he who has joy is good?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates And he who is in pain is evil?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates The good and evil both have joy and pain, but, perhaps, the evil has more of them?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates Then must we not infer, that the bad man is as good and bad as the good, or, perhaps, even better?-is not this a further inference which follows equally with the preceding from the assertion that the good and the pleasant are the same:-can this be denied, Callicles?
Callicles I have been listening and making admissions to you, Socrates; and I remark that if a person grants you anything in play, you, like a child, want to keep hold and will not give it back. But do you really suppose that I or any other human being denies that some pleasures are good and others bad?
Socrates Alas, Callicles, how unfair you are! you certainly treat me as if I were a child, sometimes saying one thing, and then another, as if you were meaning to deceive me. And yet I thought at first that you were my friend, and would not have deceived me if you could have helped. But I see that I was mistaken; and now I suppose that I must make the best of a bad business, as they said of old, and take what I can get out of you.-Well, then, as I understand you to say, I may assume that some pleasures are good and others evil?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates The beneficial are good, and the hurtful are evil?
Callicles To be sure.
Socrates And the beneficial are those which do some good, and the hurtful are those which do some evil?
Callicles Yes.
Socrates Take, for example, the bodily pleasures of eating and drinking, which were just now mentioning-you mean to say that those which promote health, or any other bodily excellence, are good, and their opposites evil?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates And in the same way there are good pains and there are evil pains?
Callicles To be sure.
Socrates And ought we not to choose and use the good pleasures and pains?
Callicles Certainly.
Socrates But not the evil?
Callicles Clearly.
Socrates Because, if you remember, Polus and I have agreed that all our actions are to be done for the sake of the good;—and will you agree with us in saying, that the good is the end of all our actions, and that all our actions are to be done for the sake of the good, 500and not the good for the sake of them?—will you add a third vote to our two?
Callicles I will.
Socrates Then pleasure, like everything else, is to be sought for the sake of that which is good, and not that which is good for the sake of pleasure?
Callicles To be sure.
Socrates But can every man choose what pleasures are good and what are evil, or must he have art or knowledge of them in detail?
Callicles He must have art.
